Scientists

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

Whiggy wrote:: Question:

Did we ever discuss a name for the sect of underground scientists on Earth If so, what was it?

If not, would a cool name be effective for the group? If so, what would some cool names be?

TDC wrote:: The last I heard they were just refered to as the HeBe Scientists who want to take control from the religious cult, because they feel they can control things better with scientific fact/thought! That's a mouthful...so I guess the name shouldn't be that long! Ha!

DG wrote:: The scientists are the decendants from Hebe station./ In Greek mythology, Hēbē is the goddess of youth (Roman equivalent: Juventas). She is the daughter of Zeus and Hera. Hebe was the cupbearer for the gods and goddesses of Mount Olympus, serving their nectar and ambrosia, until she was married to Heracles, (Roman equivalent: Hercules); her successor was the young Trojan prince Ganymede. Another title of hers, for this reason, is "Ganymeda." She also drew baths for Ares and helped Hera enter her chariot.

If any of this strikes you as a good name for the group I could go with it.

DG

Whiggy wrote:: I hesitate using "HeBe" because of the obvious PC reason. Perhaps a variation on one of the other words would work

Eugene wrote:: It struck me, while reading this, that the VM scientists sound similar to the Illuminati as depicted in Angels and Demons -- a group of scientists with an age-old beef against the Church. The root of Illuminati comes from the Latin for enlightenment. So thinking along the lines of light and sun (as a counterpoint to the moon), I thought using a derivative of the sun-god's name, Phoebus, might be cool ... especially since it's so close to Phobos, the god of fear.

DG wrote:: I like that. I thought they should have called the colony Olympus, but I could go with those suggestions too.

DG

TDC wrote:: I have a name for the resistance as well...it is Black Widow, and their insignia is a black widow spider with a deep purple iris on it's back instead of the natural red hour glass. A sort of snub-the-nose at the purple spider goddess of The Church of Arachnaea.

How would we refer to the scientists in our writings then? If they had a "handle" like 'Phoebus' would others just call them that as a nik-name, or would they have it on their Lab Coats, like the insignia of the resistance has it on their flight jackets, or what?

TDC wrote:: Oh, I see...then they would be in Hebe, but the colony would have a name then?

DG wrote:: Yeah I was talking about the colony name, what we call them as a group Phoebians (?).

TDC wrote:: It sounds really wierd when I say it to myself...perhaps not ominous enough?

DG wrote:: I like your Black Window analogy, thats who they are fighting, and dare I say, that seems...logical.

I think that the scientist need a name, I still like Olymus for the colony name, but as a collective they need a name, obviously since everyone else does.

Eggheads?

TDC wrote:: Olympus sounds right on for the Colony name. Eggheads sounds like the derogitory word Nik might use to describe them while havin' a round of beers with her resistance pals!

Where's Eugene go? You started this! ha!

Eugene wrote:: Olympus sounds like a good colony name.

I'm curious how the scientists of the VM future portray themselves. In my story, the scientists are almost religious in their self-righteousness.

If their is a religious or cultish flavor in the way they present themselves in the future (i.e., ceremonial dress that is based on the lab coats of old), then why not follow the lead of religious orders that call their followers brothers, priests, or even knights ... the Benedictine Brothers, the Templar Knights, the Druid priests ...

The Phöbic knights? (There's supposed to be an umlaut over the "o" if you see something weird pop up). (Not to be confused with the Phobic knights who are a more sinister branch of the scientists who are not in favor of enlightening the masses with their science but create fear with it so they can seize control). (Just throwing out ideas here). (Hercules carried a shield with a depiction of Phobos on it).

Anyway, I'm not completely convinced that the Rebellion would take on a similar symbol to the Rachnaeans. While historically this has happened (like the Satanists co-opting the Cross of St. Peter), a group of rebels, especially the ones depicted in VM, might take an opposing symbol or at least something more noble. I'm sure Davison is associated with some sort of noble animal.

For me, if the spider is a symbol of fear and oppression, then why use it also as a symbol of freedom and democracy? Why not use a natural predator of a spider -- like a bird, lizard, scorpion, wasp, centipede, etc. Or a noble animal associated with freedom or democracy -- like a lion or eagle?

It might be just me, but it's hard for me to see an oppressed people, like the Jews, take the symbol of their oppressors, like the Nazis, and simply change a color and use it as their own. But again, that might be just me.

DG wrote:: Good thoughts Eugene. I told Chris that I saw them as a self righteuos crowd and kind of a Logan's Run type "perfect" city where everyone is genetically enhanced for intelligence and those that aren't don't rise far if they survive at all.

TDC wrote:: OK, I think the scientists shouldn't be openly opressive or bent on a take over. After all, they are like a crouching lion in the grass in my story. And the Church of Arachanea to all believers are above any wrong doings, right? No one knows of their underhanded policies accept for the resistance and some few ( Like Janick in CV's story ) because they ( the people in the resistance movement) have lived with the real strife their whole lives...they have people on the inside, so to speak.

The Black widow spider symbol just came to me after I was doing some research on The White Rose resistance movement that went on against the Nazi's in WW II, and I got the idea of putting the Purple Iris on it's back...

As for the scientists, my character doesn't ever actually go to their camp, but instead is always met by an operative under a code name...so far, anyways...so knowing they are in Hebe and the name of the scientific colony is Olympus was just about all I had until today's discussion.

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

TDC wrote:: OK, I think the scientists shouldn't be openly opressive or bent on a take over. After all, they are like a crouching lion in the grass in my story. And the Church of Arachanea to all believers are above any wrong doings, right? No one knows of their underhanded policies accept for the resistance and some few (Like Janick in CV's story) because they (the people in the resistance movement) have lived with the real strife their whole lives...they have people on the inside, so to speak.

You're right. The scientists were never meant to be openly oppressive. As you described, they're a "crouching tiger" that has been gathering strength for the past 1,000 years. I think, however, that even though the general populace may not know of the underhanded nature of the Rachnaeans, they definitely feel the heel of the rule of the Eastern Alliance. They have to; otherwise the Resistance would have no popular support. They'd basically be terrorists if everyone supported, even unwittingly, the government.

TDC wrote:: The Black widow spider symbol just came to me after I was doing some research on The White Rose resistance movement that went on against the Nazi's in WW II, and I got the idea of putting the Purple Iris on it's back...

Note that the white rose symbolized "purity and innocence in the face of evil." I'm curious what the purple iris on the back of a black widow means to the rebellion. It can't simply be a snub to the Rachnaeans. Not to mention that the black widow has a whole lot of negative connotations.

TDC wrote:: As for the scientists, my character doesn't ever actually go to their camp, but instead is always met by an operative under a code name...so far, anyways...so knowing they are in Hebe and the name of the scientific colony is Olympus was just about all I had until today's discussion.

DG, does the Hebe station even exist now? If so, how would the Earthlings even know about it after having lost the power of space flight for so many years?

Also, if we go with a split group of scientists, it would work well with the idea of Janus, who has two faces. I can see a scientist explaining the split as Janus becoming two separate entities -- a force for enlightenment and a force for fear.

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DG wrote:: Hebe station does not exist at this time, its orbit destabilized when the moon goes into its disappearing cycle. The scientists on Hebe, when it disappears are working on (a) life prolongation and (b) genetic manipulation (ie the Janus Project), of course when they return to Earth they strip the station and set themselves up in an underground city away from most of humanity so that they could contiune their work for the "betterment" of mankind.

Eugene wrote:: So we can have some really, really old scientists? Possibly ones who remember seeing the moon disappear?

Sally wrote:: Cool! Naturally, they don't have the constitution to venture out (kind of hermit-like), taking on Mars to obtain those vials. They'd have someone else do their dirty work, covertly, of course. They probably wouldn't even care if people got killed in the process. Death is not something they're acquainted with, having lived so long.

Eugene wrote:: Originally, I had the scientists go off and take out the bodies from the Mayflower before discarding the ship (and letting it crash on Mars). However, the more I think about Sally's description of the scientists as hermits (and puppet masters), the more interesting they sound to me. If this is the case, then who do you think the scientists hire to bring the bodies back to Earth? Or, do they have a group that works mainly for them? In my chapter, the colonists definitely do the scientists' bidding. Do the Elpins have long-lost relatives who are now the scientists' personal bodyguards? (Having a group other than the scientists salvage the bodies explains why the vials were left behind. Somehow I think the scientists are so thorough they wouldn't have left the vials behind).

Sally wrote:: The Asteroid Mafia?

Eugene wrote:: That could certainly work.

Whiggy wrote:: Wow! I go to Cincy for the day to catch a ballgame, and the email busts loose!

I know this name has been used several times in Sci-fi, but i sense the scientists are risingg from the ashes of an opressed and retarded society...

How about "The Phoenix"?

TDC wrote:

Eugene wrote:: Note that the white rose symbolized "purity and innocence in the face of evil." I'm curious what the purple iris on the back of a black widow means to the rebellion. It can't simply be a snub to the Rachnaeans. Not to mention that the black widow has a whole lot of negative connotations.

My resistance movement has not any purity to it. They are good people, but doing harsh things under harsh cercumstances. I want you guys to understabd this is not soem goody tow shoes movement I'ver dreamed up here. And the Purple Iris does have a meaning to them and that will come across in my new edition of my story line.

Whiggy wrote:: Here's all I want...my bad guy to be striking a deal with the scientific underground on Earth. I wont be writing about the group at all, and none of my story will take place on Earth. I just want them to be striking a deal with my bad guy for unlimited fuel sources in exchange for their technology. And, the deal goes bust after my kick ass hero helps my bad guy meet his demise.

Can that be done with what TDC, Chris and DG are writing?

Remeber everyone, every plot line does not need to be answered in this book. Open ends can be good ends.

DG wrote:: My personal opinion here is that the scientists do not get their hands dirty, all their dealings are with their "representatives" I don't think the entire structure of who or what they are should be revealed until the end of the book, if at all.

TDC wrote:

Whiggy wrote:: How about "The Phoenix"?

Whiggy! I do believe that is IT!! BINGO for me!!

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

DG wrote:: My personal opinion here is that the scientists do not get their hands dirty, all their dealings are with their "representatives" I don't think the entire structure of who or what they are should be revealed until the end of the book, if at all.

Agreed!

Whiggy wrote:: Here's all I want...my bad guy to be striking a deal with the scientific underground on Earth. I wont be writing about the group at all, and none of my story will take place on Earth. I just want them to be striking a deal with my bad guy for unlimited fuel sources in exchange for their technology. And, the deal goes bust after my kick ass hero helps my bad guy meet his demise.

Can that be done with what TDC, Chris and DG are writing?

Can your bad guy also make a deal to recover the bodies from the Mayflower? Maybe it can be a thowaway line in your story.

TDC wrote:: My resistance movement has not any purity to it. They are good people, but doing harsh things under harsh cercumstances. I want you guys to understabd this is not soem goody tow shoes movement I'ver dreamed up here. And the Purple Iris does have a meaning to them and that will come across in my new edition of my story line.

I wasn't implying that there should be purity in the resistance movement, just that there had to be meaning in the symbol that they're using. Even without knowing the history of the White Rose Resistance movement, the meaning of their symbol is self-evident. The meaning of the black widow with the purple iris escapes me. As I mentioned, the black widow has negative connotations.

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

TDC wrote:

Whiggy wrote:: Here's all I want...my bad guy to be striking a deal with the scientific underground on Earth. I wont be writing about the group at all, and none of my story will take place on Earth. I just want them to be striking a deal with my bad guy for unlimited fuel sources in exchange for their technology. And, the deal goes bust after my kick ass hero helps my bad guy meet his demise.

For me, it would answer a big question...where is the resistance getting their fuel? If they are working with your guy from the asteroid belt, then BINGO once again! A place where they are getting their much needed fuel from!!

I LIKE THIS SHIP!! IT'S EXCITING!

TDC wrote:

DG wrote:: My personal opinion here is that the scientists do not get their hands dirty, all their dealings are with their "representatives" I don't think the entire structure of who or what they are should be revealed until the end of the book, if at all.

Right, that's why my contact is an operative that is never shown face to face with the resistance. Only by a code name. I also love the idea of the resistance getting their fuel from Whiggy's bad guy on the astroid belt! I am going to write yet again to tweak my story some more!

Sally wrote:: Sounds like Whig's mafia is making a deal that can't be refused.

DG wrote:

Whiggy wrote:: How about "The Phoenix"?

I think the they should be The Phoenix Initiative.

Eugene wrote:: My reservation is that the group that MacGyver worked for was called the Phoenix Foundation. And isn't the Phoenix Institute an online college?

CV wrote:: Here are my thoughts after digesting the 20 or so e-mails on this subject:

- I like the Phoebus name. Phoenix seems over-done to me.
- I thought the same thing as Eugene about the spider symbol for the resistance, and since the Rachnaean color is purple, that makes it even more confusing. To me, any spider symbol would cause someone in the Eastern Alliance to make a connection to the Rachnaeans. Wouldn't they want something that's instantly recognizable, rather than a riff on what they hate? Can it be just the iris, and maybe a different color?
- As things were going around, it seemed to me that it would be logical for the scientists to be hiring the asteroid mafia guys to do their dirty work, including the Mayflower stuff Eugene was talking about. And what if one family was selling fuel to the scientists, and the other family was selling fuel to the resistance?
- I like the idea of the scientists living a really long time, but not necessarily staying in such good shape. I'm picturing something like those scientists who lived underground in Beneath the Planet of the Apes and worshipped the bomb.

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DG wrote:

CV wrote:: I like the idea of the scientists living a really long time, but not necessarily staying in such good shape. I'm picturing something like those scientists who lived underground in Beneath the Planet of the Apes and worshipped the bomb.]

Ah yes, a very good thought CV.

DG wrote:

CV wrote:: As things were going around, it seemed to me that it would be logical for the scientists to be hiring the asteroid mafia guys to do their dirty work, including the Mayflower stuff Eugene was talking about. And what if one family was selling fuel to the scientists, and the other family was selling fuel to the resistance?

I like that thought, and I think the asteroid family things should be Chris' call.

Eugene wrote:: Good thoughts, CV. I really like the idea of one family selling fuel to the resistance and another to the scientists.

And a great comparison of the VM scientists to the scientists in Beneath the Planet of the Apes!

Subject: Re: Scientists Fri May 22, 2009 11:09 am

Quote :: ... the scientists ... entire structure of who or what they are should be revealed until the end of the book ... - DG

A strong possibility exists to make these guys responsible for the moon, too. Or was there another concept floating around out there for that? Maybe enemies of these scientists, who removed the moon to get rid of these scientist's work.

Subject: Re: Scientists Fri May 22, 2009 11:25 am

I think we've already established that it was the Church that was responsible for the moon disappearing in order to bring about the prophecy.

Subject: Re: Scientists Fri May 22, 2009 11:33 am

DG wrote:

CV wrote:: As things were going around, it seemed to me that it would be logical for the scientists to be hiring the asteroid mafia guys to do their dirty work, including the Mayflower stuff Eugene was talking about. And what if one family was selling fuel to the scientists, and the other family was selling fuel to the resistance?

I like that thought, and I think the asteroid family things should be Chris' call.

Agreed. But Whig doesn't actually have to have anything in his story that blatantly says that, he would just have to make sure he doesn't have anything that prevents it from being a possibility. Just like if someone mentions something in their story about the EA or the Church, I don't have to actually make a reference to it in my story, I just have to make sure I don't contradict it.

-CV

Subject: Re: Scientists Fri May 22, 2009 12:48 pm

The motivation for the Moons disappearence is in chapter one (and yes the Church was behind it for their own reasons, actually CV I think we might need to p[oint that out in your chapter when she returns).

I like the idea that the scientists are like the ones on POTA, I say that the Ruling Council of the scientists are made up of those who are left...maybe they have offspring but what about clones of the original scientists? So the "originals" run everything but the clones do the dirty work?? And maybe the clones are genetically altered enough so that the originals can keep their thumb on them.

Maybe they also do a bit of genetic harvesting, picking up strays from the population to refresh the line.

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

I went to see "Angels and Demons" today to reacquiant myself with the story. As I mentioned before, the novel and movie deal with the Illuminati, an old organization of scientists, who take on the Church. What's interesting is the way they go about doing it -- they do it in secret, hiring others to do their dirty work and moving pieces like a chess match all culminating in a final end game.

(For example, in the book, the Illuminati uses a fundamentalist Muslim assassin to do much of the dirty work. The assassin is the perfect example of the Illuminati using an enemy of the Church against it).

So this got me thinking: What's the scientists' final end game? Sure, it's to defeat the Church of Rachnaea and the Eastern Alliance. But what is that big event that they're planning that will bring about their enemies' downfall? How do the sabotage attacks on Mars and the asteroid belt relate to the Mayflower virus? And how do these things connect to the scientists' manipulation of the Rebels? And have they also infiltrated the Church and the government? What do all these elements add up to? What is the scientists' final move? (And how does the arrival of the moon help or fubar their plans?)

This may not have to be answered in the first book. But it might be cool to have the characters find out what it is the scientists are up to at the very end as a cliffhanger to the next book.

We, as a group, should figure out what their end game is so we can all write towards it.

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So I watching 60 Minutes today, and they had a segment on a drug that slows down the gene that controls the aging process:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/25/60minutes/main4752082.shtml

This, of course, made me think of our scientists and how their search for the fountain of youth is also connected to their genetic manipulation of the Elpin colonists -- their goal of creating the ubermensch.

Subject: Re: Scientists Mon May 25, 2009 4:04 pm

Some good thoughts and info there Eugene. My original outline had the scientists more as an isolationist group, but when Sally turned Mars that way it seemed to me that the scientist might be more involved in what was happening in our little corner of the uniiverse than I imagined. It seems to me that the science-types think they know whats better for all of Mankind, even if they truly don't, and maybe they thought at first they were going to start a smarter world on Elips and that backfired (of course they didn't know that), so maybe they looked at the Moons disappearence as an opportunity to rebuild the Earth in their image. I'm sure they could calculate what happened to the Moon and the likely change that it would retrun, so they figure they have a short amount of time to cause all of the changes they wanted to happen, but they didn't count on the Church becoming so powerful with the disappearence, so they had to alter their plans to reboot Mankind.

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I think there needs to be something in the far past that sets the scientists back. Maybe Hebe Station crashing to Earth made the scientists lose many years of research (and many members). (Maybe someone sabotaged the station). Maybe when the Church gained power early on, they had themselves their own little Inquisition and went about systematically dismantling (and killing) those who might oppose them (like the scientists) and ultimately drove them underground. Maybe the scientists' own experiments caused their own downfall, culling their numbers and forcing them to isolate themselves. Maybe it just takes them a really long time -- 1,000 years -- to get all the right pieces in the right places. (Maybe that last piece they need is on the Speedwell ... or is the Speedwell).

Subject: Re: Scientists Tue May 26, 2009 11:46 am

I kind of like the Inquisition idea. The world is in choas after the moon disappears, and it is unlikely that the Church came into power right away so I would see a clash between the two and maybe the church gains the upper hand by blaming the scientists for all the ills in the world (like they do now) and because of the Church's prophecy they wind up with the majority of the population on their side and the scientist who think they are there trying to helpo are run out of town on a rail and the chasm between the two widens,. THe scientist slink out and regroup had restart their idea of a perfect society elsewhere hidden for all these years and its only been like in the last 100 years that their power base has become strong enough to allow them to try and swing the balance back their way.

Posts : 429 Join date : 2008-07-24 Location : Windy City

I like that a lot.

But does the re-appearance of the moon affect their plans somehow. Does it kick start them into overdrive? Does it ruin some of their plans? Or is the re-appearance incidental?

If they knew that the Moon was coming back, as DG suggested, then all the sabotaging going on could have been in preparation for the moon's arrival -- all diversions so that no one sees what the scientists are up to. On Earth, the Church and EA are in chaos (with the leaderships of both groups taking hits). The Rebellion is ready to strike. Things are askew on Mars and in the asteroid belt. And now the scientists have some sort of virus that kills.

It's interesting how the scientists are softening up their competition, not realizing that they may be leaving the solar system defenseless against the Elpins.

Subject: Re: Scientists Tue May 26, 2009 9:53 pm

Quote :: Reboot Mankind—DG

I like that sound of that.

Quote :: Maybe Hebe Station crashing to Earth made the scientists lose many years of research (and many members). (Maybe someone sabotaged the station).—Eugene

What if there’s another group opposing these scientists that cause these setbacks? What if they’re still at work but haven’t been introduced yet? They could make their appearance in the 2nd book.

Quote :: Maybe when the Church gained power early on, they had themselves their own little Inquisition and went about systematically dismantling (and killing) those who might oppose them (like the scientists) and ultimately drove them underground.—Eugene

Maybe those saboteurs of these scientists built the church as a front to sway the masses, making it impossible for the scientists to gain the upper hand. What if they’re still behind the church front?

I just wrote a section that mentions possible sabotage, calling it a witch in the system (see below). (Didn’t plan that coincidence.) They could be behind sabotaging any group that poses a threat. Mars certainly sways towards the Alliance, rather than the church.

Quote :: “You’re not going to believe this, but the sensor unit is here and fully functioning, according to our diagnostics. There must be a disconnect with the interface. We’re going to follow the trail back to the hub. Just like Hansel and Gretel’s witch of earth lore, maybe something or someone’s messed with the link.”

“A witch?” Dason replied. “All right, you check the hardware and I’ll sift through their database. If there a witch in their system, let’s find it.”

Dason considered the options: A disconnect? Or a bypass? Either way, the implications spelled sabotage. His stomach knotted. That was a serious accusation, and Dason wasn’t ready to make that call.

Quote :: It's interesting how the scientists are softening up their competition, not realizing that they may be leaving the solar system defenseless against the Elpins—Eugene

I like that irony.

Subject: Re: Scientists Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:31 pm

I agree with you Sally and I loved reading the "witch" in the system part of your story line! It was great!

I believe the scientists are undermining the Church through aiding the resistance, because they want to take over Earth! They firmly believe they can do a better job and that no religion is the correct and level headed way to lead a colony, let alone an entire planet.