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 Leila's Story

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Whigworld
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PostSubject: Leila's Story   Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:41 am

Use this thread to critique Leila's story once it's posted on box.net
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:46 pm

I am so, so sorry that my story is not up yet and that I have not read anyone's. I was just suddenly completely overloaded with work this week and I am currently falling asleep. The first draft of my story is basically done...I say basically because I am stuck on the ending, but I will probably just post it how it is for opinions...tomorrow. Right now, much needed sleep. Two hours a night seriously does not cut it. Sad

And I'm also very sorry for missing the meeting; same "excuse," I was working so hard I did not even realize that I was late for the meeting until about 11.

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:00 pm

Very Happy Don't sweat it, Leila! We're all busy and looking foreward to reading everything too!

cheers cheers Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:47 am

My story is up on Box.net! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:37 pm

My critique:

"Son of Morning" was a good read, and very well written. It was intriguing, and the idea was unique. The character development was good, although I really think that if you had more time or decided to flesh out the story, it could go farther.

I really don't have anything bad to say about your story. It was a delight to read. The pace was good, the perspective fresh. I do think that the end seems too quick. I think this story could go on and on. Maybe you could flash forward to an ending with Lucien/Lucifer controlling everything? Or do you want an ending that is just partway through the process?

Again, I liked it, but I think it could just use some more fleshing out, particularly around the ending. Great job!
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:09 pm

Thank you so much for your feedback!

My original plan was to have the story end after Lucien/Lucifer had gained control, but when it came to writing it I ran into a brick wall (I hate writer's block). The ending was a little rushed, and I apologize for that (I was running late... *coughs*), and I do intend to flesh it out more. I am still undecided about how the story should end though, so any feedback on that is very helpful.

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:12 pm

Exclamation Exclamation Son Of Morning was a really great story idea. It seemed a lot like the Golden Compass in spots and a little uneven in dialogue, but really good up to the ending, as you already know. I understand what writer's block about an ending is, have had it many many times...as we all have and can sympathize there! Smile

A few spots I saw that might need evening out ( and this is all just for you to consider, I would not attempt to re-write your story for you):

Page 2 Paragraph 1:

Lucien was not allowed to attend his father's funeral, however he did see the body before they took it from the house. He saw the dark red marks like lithe finger prints, that crawled across the neck. Marks that no one else could see but Lucien.

Page 3 Paragraph 7:

"...get out of my house or I'll summon the guards."

Page 4 Paragraph 6:

"You are not taking my son to Orias. That city is full of evil!" She wailed.

Triton sighed quietly as he looked at Lucien's mother with composure. "Quite the contrary, madam, it is the center of Cayn Government and Society."

"Then the Kingdom's Government and Society is the center of evil!" Lucien's mother spat back.

then Paragraph 12:

Lucien simply stared at the woman who had confined him to this dreary life.

"I want to go." He said matter of factly.

His mother just stood there, mouth agape with astonishment at his thoughtlessness.

Triton nodded towards the door, "Very well."

Page 9 Paragraph 16:

"He's...he's hiding it." Lucien said as he sensed more emotion eminating from the shadowy form.

I am not sure what Dark Light is, unless you are referring to the Angel of Light, as Lucifer is referred to in scripture. Other words to describe this eerie light could be:

Obscure, shadowy, gloomy, umbra, dusky, dim, adumbration, vague.

I am confussed by the ending. It does seem abrupt and relying on the reader to take hold of more than they might be capable of. Who are the three Magi? Are they top officials in the Kingdom's Government sent to save Lucien? To asist Triton? Are they good or wicked? What does the son rising mean? Is there a double meaning by it I am not getting?

Perhaps you could take it a step further and have Lucifer/Lucien banished by the Magi in power to walk the earth and control all evil deeds upon it and it's hapless mortal inhabitents...that is until a deliverer with the key to break that power appears...
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:56 pm

Could you please elaborate about it seeming "a lot like the Golden Compass in spots"? I have never read the books nor seen the movie, and I have no idea what that comment means in reference to my story.

Lots of suggestions, which is good - but please remember that this is just a first draft. Thank you for your suggestions. I'll look them over. Smile

The Dark Light was not supposed to be equivalent to anything in our world. It is simply the form the Daemon takes in Lucien's mind, just like Lucien's mind was represented by the dark forest.

Also, the sun rising was a sort of play of words and a metaphor, although I am thinking that the sun setting may be better metaphorically. The sun rising was originally intended to be a symbol for Lucien's rise to power, but now I'm thinking that maybe having the sun setting, Lucifer losing control over how his power is used, would be a better idea.

The ending is something I had a lot of trouble with. I'm half-afraid that, if I keep going, the story won't end and I'll have another novel-in-progress on my hands. I am also a bit stuck on exactly where to go to next - I probably should have had a note that the ending probably is not where the story will actually end.

The three Magi are three of those in power - although it was not exactly explained in the story, it was implied that the Magi control Caym. They are not necessarily good or evil. The Magi decide to get rid of the necromancers, and Lucien, as he promised, fights for them, also intent on gaining power for himself.

You suggested that I have Lucien/Lucifer banished and have a deliverer and so forth - but this story is meant to end with Lucien taking over, not a miraculous rescue of Caym. Although perhaps you could view it as a rescue with him taking over. Depends on your point of view.

I had issues with the title, and "Son of Morning" is probably not going to be the final one. Suggestions would be helpful. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:05 pm

Your thoughtful reply is terrific! Very Happy Arrow Arrow

The Golden Compass had a Deamon for every earth dweller/human who stayed with them throughout their adult life and helped them in whatever quests they undertook. The similarities with that one idea is stunning, considering you have never seen the movie or read the book!

I think you have something there, about using the sun setting...making the world a darker place in which the evil presence of Lucifer/Lucien resides. Makes it a more menacing idea to end on.

So if Lucifer/Lucien is taking over, then that should be explained in more detail so the reader can see this as the curtain closes. They will be left considering how his world will survive then, in iron fist rule or utter caos.

Great story, good imagery!!
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:13 pm

Aww, someone already used the Daemon idea? Darn it. At least it's not completely the same.

As I said, the ending certainly needs work. I was stuck and sorta rushed it. Not a great thing to do. But I'll be sure to add more that helps explain what happens. Smile

Thanks again for the comments! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:13 pm

To clarify Re: Golden Compass...
The "daemon" they use is in an old/mythological sense of the word - it is a part of the person's soul, not necessarily tied to the evil concept of "demon."

I understood your idea of "daemon" to be more equivalent with "demon," i.e. - a spirit generally thought to be evil. That is what I got from your tale, since "Lucifer" is the name you chose for your demon. So technically, no, the daemon-idea that you had does not quite match the PP "His Dark Materials" daemon concept. So no worries.
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:56 pm

Daemons themselves aren't necessarily evil in the world I created. The name Lucifer was chosen because of the name's meaning: light bearer, son of morning, etc.

Daemons do have the potential to be or to be used for evil and are thought to be evil by the general population. They are closer to demons than it sounds like they are in the Golden Compass, but still not the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:38 pm

My two cents ...

I loved this story. It was really well written, with fresh interesting characters and plenty of action to keep the narrative moving along.

I got a real Star Wars vibe from it. The young apprentice going off to learn the ancient ways, discovering a dark side in the quest for power. That's just good stuff.

I agree with everyone else, I only want more of the same, especially Lucien's training under Asmoday. That was the one part that really felt rushed to me.

Home run, right out of the gate! (That's high praise -- I don't mix metaphors for just anyone!)

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:22 pm

Thank you for your feedback!

I will work on fleshing out the training with Asmoday and then the ending.

Thanks so much! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:23 pm

Sorry I'm late chipping in here, I agree with Trib I think you've done a wonderful first draft and you need to fill it out some more. I look forward to seeing what you add in.

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:15 pm

Everyone's already covered most of what I was going to say... I got a very eerie feeling reading it, as though the bright sunny day here was dimming the more I read... (ooo!)

The only comparison nobody made yet was it also reminded me of Harry Potter, in the sense that a boy is mistreated and has powers beyond his understanding and is then taken away to be taught.

With three magi and Lucifer, I thought you were definitely going for a Christian metaphor but I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say. I think it would be stronger if you removed at least a couple similarities unless you are explicitly making a statement about Christianity, in which case it wasn't clear what your statement was. Smile

I enjoyed it most up until he discovered Lucifer's name. After that I lost all sympathy for Lucien and started rooting for anyone else. I'd personally prefer it if Lucifer just lets Lucien THINK he's in charge, when in fact the magi were right all along and you can't control your daemon. That to me would have been a stronger direction to go in.

I really like reading your stuff. It's creepy, in a very good way! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:45 pm

What a Face I believe that Moon has hit the nail on the head here!

I felt much like it was going for a more Christian based evil direction just because of the descriptions and names you have chosen.

I also felt it should go all the way over the top in evil at the end, or at least leave the reader feeling there might be some hope that Lucien can come out the good guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:56 pm

moonunit wrote:
Everyone's already covered most of what I was going to say... I got a very eerie feeling reading it, as though the bright sunny day here was dimming the more I read... (ooo!)

The only comparison nobody made yet was it also reminded me of Harry Potter, in the sense that a boy is mistreated and has powers beyond his understanding and is then taken away to be taught.

With three magi and Lucifer, I thought you were definitely going for a Christian metaphor but I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say. I think it would be stronger if you removed at least a couple similarities unless you are explicitly making a statement about Christianity, in which case it wasn't clear what your statement was. Smile

I enjoyed it most up until he discovered Lucifer's name. After that I lost all sympathy for Lucien and started rooting for anyone else. I'd personally prefer it if Lucifer just lets Lucien THINK he's in charge, when in fact the magi were right all along and you can't control your daemon. That to me would have been a stronger direction to go in.

I really like reading your stuff. It's creepy, in a very good way! Smile
What's reminding you about Christianity in my story? What similarities are you talking about? *feels very dumb at the moment...*

Perhaps I haven't made this entirely clear, but my intent was to make you not exactly like Lucien by the end of the story. He's kinda the bad guy (although that depends on your point of view). And he's supposed to win. (For now Razz) But having the Magi be right and with Lucifer really being in control, that sorta defeats the purpose of my story and completely contradicts the world I created. The necromancers wouldn't even exist, and then Lucien would have likely continued his training with Triton and been a good little Magi.

I'm really glad you like reading my work. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:03 pm

thedreamcontinued wrote:
What a Face I believe that Moon has hit the nail on the head here!

I felt much like it was going for a more Christian based evil direction just because of the descriptions and names you have chosen.

I also felt it should go all the way over the top in evil at the end, or at least leave the reader feeling there might be some hope that Lucien can come out the good guy.
I'm feeling really dumb here - what implies anything Christian beyond the battle between good/evil? I know that Lucifer is a fallen angel and the name often given to Satan, but the name also means "Light Bearer," "Light Bringer," and "Son of Morning," all of which fit with who I wanted Lucien's Daemon to be. After all, Lucien means "light."

Quick note about the other Daemon name in the story: Vepar is the name given to the Duchess of Hell, who governs the seas. Since Triton is a name associated with the sea (a god who lives in the sea), having the name of the demon governing the sea fit as his daemon.

"All the way over the top" can mean a lot. What are you thinking is "over the top in evil"?

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:14 pm

Well the magi are the wise men in the Bible, I think, and three wise men/magi come to the manger for the birth of Jesus. So Lucifer being a common name for the supreme Christian devil, plus three magi, plus glowy orby light thingies (especially reading yours after TDC's, where her angel looked a little like that!) all just seemed like you were aiming for something very Christian.

Plus, isn't there a big thing in Christianity about knowing/speaking the name of the devil and... something-something help me out here people? Smile (moonunit needs to go back and consult Rolling Stones lyrics...)

I guess for me Lucien was a mistreated, misunderstood, very sympathetic character up until that point, and then abruptly lost all humanity, so abruptly that I didn't feel what you intended. If you want him to be a bad guy who gets super-bad, maybe he could be more pleased at his father's death? Or sump'm? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:12 pm

I loved the story, and got a Star Wars vibe more than a Christianity vibe from it. I do think that, like with TDC and Moon, you're going to have a lot of people automatically make the assumption that it's about the Lucifer they're most familiar with, though.

Like Trib, I'd be happy just seeing it fleshed out a little. I think it's great.

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:33 pm

moonunit wrote:
Well the magi are the wise men in the Bible, I think, and three wise men/magi come to the manger for the birth of Jesus. So Lucifer being a common name for the supreme Christian devil, plus three magi, plus glowy orby light thingies (especially reading yours after TDC's, where her angel looked a little like that!) all just seemed like you were aiming for something very Christian.

Plus, isn't there a big thing in Christianity about knowing/speaking the name of the devil and... something-something help me out here people? Smile (moonunit needs to go back and consult Rolling Stones lyrics...)

I guess for me Lucien was a mistreated, misunderstood, very sympathetic character up until that point, and then abruptly lost all humanity, so abruptly that I didn't feel what you intended. If you want him to be a bad guy who gets super-bad, maybe he could be more pleased at his father's death? Or sump'm? Smile
They are? Oh...well, a magus is a sorcerer, too. I did do research, but I didn't think of reading the Bible to check for accidental similarities... I could change the number of Magi. That particular detail wasn't important - I just like the number 3. The glowy orby light was simply what came to mind as how to light Lucien's path, and then it fit with the image of his daemon in his mind as well. I could possibly search for another demon/Daemon name that means something to do with light, but Lucifer just fits so perfectly.

Something big in Christianity being that knowing and using a demon's name gives you power over it? *eyebrow*

Mistreated and misunderstood character, perhaps, but he felt no guilt at causing his father's death (although he was not sure if he caused it at the time), and his main goal was to become all-powerful so that he would never be able to be repressed or poorly treated ever again. His obsession with power was too great, and he achieved that power far too quickly when he learned his Daemon's name.

To you, was the "abruptness" when he learned Lucifer's name, or when he had killed Triton?

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:36 pm

cvalin wrote:
I loved the story, and got a Star Wars vibe more than a Christianity vibe from it. I do think that, like with TDC and Moon, you're going to have a lot of people automatically make the assumption that it's about the Lucifer they're most familiar with, though.

Like Trib, I'd be happy just seeing it fleshed out a little. I think it's great.
I'm really glad you loved it! Very Happy

*sighs* I guess I have to find a demon/Daemon name that has to do with light that is not Lucifer...that's annoying...there goes the title...

And fleshing it out is at the top of the list of things to change! Except maybe Lucifer's name...

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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:47 am

Leila, it's funny that you mention that you're worried you might have another novel-in-progress. I think you do, and I mean it in a good way. (I think you should suggest this story as a future G10 novel). What you have is a great set up for the fall and redemption of Lucien. Of course, in this short story you can only cover his fall. Like TDC and Moon, mentioned, your story has a very His Dark Materials/Harry Potter feel. For me, it has to do with the potential of having something epic in scope ... perhaps a best-selling, young-adult novel series?

Aside from "Star Wars," your story also reminded me of the Green Lantern comics, which follows a man who finds a ring that gives him great power. The power eventually corrupts him and he kills every single Green Lantern out there. But then he later redeems himself as a hero. (Of course, this is a common but effective story in Western Lit).

In terms of fleshing things out, I think you need to lay down more of the rules of the world. We get glimpses of them here and there, but more would be helpful. For example, if you delved more into how the fortune stones worked, then the death of Lucien's father could feel more sinister. I thought at first his death had to do with chance, but the story implies that it was Lucien's will. There should be no question on how Lucien affects the fortune stones and how the fortune stones affect the world.

I've also emailed a few suggestions typed into your story. Just minor re-wordings and stuff.

Overall, very good. And there's a lot of potential in here to make it great! In terms of your end, think about the arc you've created for Lucien: a young boy who craves power and becomes the evil bad guy. Perhaps this could be achieved by fleshing out the relationship between Lucien and Triton. Make it a father-son relationship since Lucien never really had one with his father. Perhaps Triton is tender but stern, esp. when it comes to training. Then ending the story with Lucien confronting Triton and killing him might work really well. (No need to bring in the 3 Magis). It becomes a story of a boy who grows up to surpass and usurp his father ... a common subject in Greek and Norse mythology. (It seems Lucien has a thing for killing father figures ... so if you decide to continue your story in a longer format, it might be fitting that Lucien eventually kills Asmoday as part of his redemption).

Leila_Data wrote:

Something big in Christianity being that knowing and using a demon's name gives you power over it? *eyebrow*

I think it's "Speak of the Devil, and he shall appear" ... which is why you say "Speak of the devil" when the person you're talking about suddenly appears.
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PostSubject: Re: Leila's Story   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:13 pm

Wow, there is a LOT of great stuff in that... Thanks so much! I particularly like the idea of Lucien possibly killing Asmoday as part of his redemption.

But now I have a slight problem. I can't expand the story as far as I now want to within the time and word-count restraints of this book. Not to mention the fact that I haven't worked on the story in over two weeks due to a bunch of recent...well, crap. *wince* But the more I read everyone's advice and ideas, and the more I think about it myself, the more I want to try and make this story into a novel.

And suddenly I don't know what to do... Shocked

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